#1 HOW WE STAY TOGETHER: What are Participatory Practices // Yaryna Shumska, Vira Ibriamova-Syvoraksha, Yevheniia Nesterovych

[00:00:04] – [00:01:03]. Anton Tkachuk: Welcome to the podcast “How We Stay Together”. Here we talk about participatory practices in art. Today, such practices have acquired a new meaning. Now they are helping to build civil society. In a series of these episodes, the moderator and presenter Yevheniia Nesterovych, together with artists, figure out what a participatory approach is and what challenges are faced by those who want to work with the involvement of communities. And they also talk through the terminology used by practitioners in this field. The team of the Jam Factory Art Center shares knowledge that will help encourage artists to use participatory practices. In this episode, we look at what participatory practices are, how long a participatory project can last, and when an artist becomes a mediator.
The interlocutors are Yaryna Shumska, Vira Ibriamova-Syvoraksha and Yevheniia Nestorovych.
[00:01:24] – [00:01:40]. Ye. N.: I would like to introduce our first guests of this series of talks: Yaryna Shumska and Vira Ibriamova-Sivoraksha. I will ask the girls to say a few words about themselves. Yaryna, I invite you to speak.
[00:01:41] – [00:04:36]. Ya. Sh.: Good afternoon. It so happened that life brought work with people, but it was never something special, but more intuitive. In my life, such aspects of me as an artist who paints and an artist who works with performance combined, and performance is a genre that always requires direct interaction with the viewer and with one’s own body. A few years ago, in fact it was already more than ten years ago, I had the opportunity to work first with children, then with teenagers, various projects occured, which gave rise to this communication and interaction with people. In 2021, I probably had the most active cooperation with a specific community. This was already a project I joined as, let’s say, a facilitator of those workshops: working with several different groups and different communities. The project took place at the initiative of the Jam Factory, their cooperation with the Italian organization working in Rome, Latitudo Art Projects. So I had the opportunity to work there in a house, a district, a whole part of the city called Corviale. And it all comes together — 10,000 people, 10,000 residents live in a kilometer-long building complex. And hence the idea itself, which raises a lot of question marks: how is it even possible, what is it exactly? The residents themselves do not openly call this place, this building “Serpantone”, – a snake or dragon, but they live in it! It turns out that a dragon can be very scary from afar, but in reality, it is also kind, it has a heart, and it has an incredibly big soul. This experience was unique for me. And now, when I either have the opportunity myself, or I know that someone is going to Rome, I always say: “Be sure to go to Corviale.” Although it’s a suburb of Rome and obviously not the number one must-see you’ll find in tourist guides, for me it’s the soul of that great city. It was a very valuable experience for me.
[00:04:37] – [00:04:45]. Ye. N.: Thank you. Vira, please tell us about yourself and your experience in participatory practices – how did it all begin?
[00:04:46] – [00:06:10]. V. I.-S.: Hello everyone. It was years ago for me, maybe fifteen years ago. In general, I am a musician and a teacher of traditional Ukrainian singing. I currently have two main tracks that I feel very passionate about. Unfortunately, after the full-scale invasion, one of them is still waiting for me to walk it. The first is my “Singing Workshop”, a project that I created in Chernihiv, and it still exists offline and online. Its main task is to bring back traditional Ukrainian singing to the everyday environment. And in it I constantly work directly with people – and I love it very much. And the other path is the Orff approach. This is a way for a person to learn music or explore themselves through music. Before the full-scale invasion I worked in Chernihiv in a music studio with children from nine months to five years old and, accordingly, with parents, mothers and fathers. That’s why it’s also about people. These are the two main lines, if very briefly.
[00:06:20] – [00:06:48]. Ye. N: I suggest starting our conversation about participatory practices in art from the very beginning. How would you define participatory practices? And let’s try to define its place among other genres of contemporary art, what are its closest neighbors in participatory practices and where is their place on this mental map?
[00:06:50] – [00:07:27]. V. I.-S.: In general, it is a very interesting topic and story – why are they needed. Now, as we can see, these practices are only gaining momentum and are becoming more and more common. So, there is some need for this – the need of artists and people who join it, and it is very interesting to understand what is there’s a need in this from one side and what is from the other. And when these two values ​​converge, then, it seems to me, we have this participative practice as a result. When the need of the artist coincides with the need of the [involved] person. Somehow.
[00:07:27] – [00:07:28]. Ye. N.: Yaryna, please.
[00:07:29] – [00:09:31]. Ya. Sh.: I would like to add on the why it emerged now. There are simply such historical sections where we can always trace participatory practices, how people got together, did something together: sang, sewed, embroidered… Maybe they used not exactly the name [participation] then but these group practices of staying together, spending pastimes have always been. This is what a person basically lives by. Over time, our world changes – we lose something, we get something new; we go through such circles, cycles rather, all the time. And sometimes we come across the fact that we rediscover what we lost, or perhaps, differently, from a different angle, perceive what this life was like and how it can be today, now. Only some artists or people of art or culture can participate in this. And only some have such a need. But when we talk about this type of activity, for me the most valuable point is the question of trust, the opportunity to open up to someone. And this is always two-sided: here you can’t expect openness only from the community you work with, you, as a person who comes to this work, must completely give yourself to the group – as if you become one with it. When this symbiosis appears, if everything works out, this is the great joy that this work generates. And then it bears fruit.
[00:09:41] – [00:09:50]. Ye. N: Vira, I would like to ask you, what was your need to enter this practice?
[00:09:51] – [00:12:08]. V. I.-S.: It is probably safety. In my opinion, this is one of the basic concepts that should be present a priori when working with people, regardless of the form. And I had a personal experience when I participated in some events, and this security was not there. It is actually very traumatizing and drains energy and strength. I realized that I was subconsciously following the opposite. And in general, my first rule in work (regardless of the feild, whether it is the Orff approach, or traditional music, or a combination of both) is to do no harm. The second rule: if everything has already worked out – today a person is ready to receive, I am ready to give, and it all goes on the same wave, then you can also benefit from this. Therefore, the rule of “do no harm” goes hand in hand with the rule of safety: one must feel this basic option in such practices. And I also thought about how we can define these practices and how they relate to art? And it seems to me that it is primarily about the process. Even if, for example, in participatory practices, we draw a picture — and there is already some final result, actually a picture or some sculpture, which will later be part of the exposition, it is the tip of the iceberg. Everything that is underwater is the process of creating this work: how it is created, how people communicate with each other and what they feel while doing it. Therefore, for me, personally, participatory practices are a process and time, and people in this process. That’s the gist of it.
[00:12:09] – [00:15:02]. Ya. Sh.: Returning once again to where this need comes from. The 20th century brought us this shifted focus on process in art. And one of the characteristics of that is the emergence of these practices — we focus more on something else. I may be [define] it for myself more through the prism of an artist, a person who works both individually, but also deals with communities. But still, this shifted focus manifests itself in absolutely everything. And in working with other people as well: for me, the defining moment was the year 2021, when the feeling of the need to work with people was very clearly outlined. And in general, in any direction — [the desire] to show the character of a person, an invisible person. I remember how in Kaunas (it was also part of the Magic Carpets program, at the final exhibition) it was a huge treasure for me that the performance, which was the final part of that program, I initially planned with the thought of architecture, of place, of the history of the place where it was supposed to take place, and as a result, the people, the employees of this gallery, became key in that project. It was an extremely valuable experience. Like this process – the opportunity to talk with them, the opportunity for dialogue and the fact that these ladies – older ladies who work in this gallery – became a part of that work. They were not active participants there, but they became heroines – and felt that their voice and their presence were also important. In my opinion, often when we collaborate with other people, it is an opportunity to create a platform for them – to show up, at least to feel that your voice has weight, you can act in general, and you don’t have to have some extraordinary long-term professional training. The opportunity to spend some time together is the value that today brings us.
[00:15:18] – [00:17:07]. V. I.-S.: And in the traditional society, in which our Ukrainian traditional culture was formed, people were multitaskers. Because one person could do almost everything: she grew a plant, then made threads, fabric, embroidered and so on from it; and wore these clothes herself. The same with other decorative and applied arts. And directly with music and songs, rather with songs, with singing, because with music, after all, it was different (people learned music; not everyone played). And this is such a cool option when art is part of everyday life. But closer to our time, to the industrial society, this human multitasking narrowed, and a person got a certain specific profession in which he learned, grew and then improved. And it seemed to be getting a little narrower. It seems to me that in the modern, post-industrial world, we are already professionals, perhaps in one business or in several, but few. And joining art itself helps to look at oneself already in this current world with the help of modern forms and practices, that is, it is such an echo of the traditional that we had, but already in a modern form as much as possible.
[00:17:08] – [00:19:25]. Ye. N: And, apparently, the traditional was also primarily directed to a sense of community and to some common practices and cohabitation — or important moments, or tragic, or joyful, or simply significant in the life of the community. And when Vera mentioned group traditional singing, I also thought about how much it always creates a sense of resonance between everyone present. In fact, the last residency (this year, 2023), related to sound, was just the opportunity to feel how much due to the common voice practices of living practices, there was a sense of community among people who may not even have been a community before. But here we come to the question proposed by Vira: how to talk about this process, what words can be used to describe it, and how to fix these subtle vibrations that are in it. In the process of communication between people, in something so very subtle… It does not lend itself well to theorizing and, even sometimes it seems, to theorize is to slightly spoil the very effect of these practices. But based on the results of last year’s [2022] residency, the Jam Factory prepared a book that outlines the methodology. It is also an attempt to record the process in its course. And, obviously, for the cumulative effect of practices to occur, we need to somehow learn to talk about it.
Tell us how you talk about it among yourselves. How, for example, Yaryna, do you talk to students about this [Yaryna teaches at the Lviv National Academy of Arts]? Do you talk to them about this type of practice and projects? How do you try to tell them your experience? And, Vira, I would also like to ask you to tell me about the experience of this year’s [2023] residency: how can you talk about the process?
[00:19:26] – [00:22:45]. Ya. Sh.: For me, these subtle matters are such an eternal question. There are things that we can describe, voice and document, but they act in their fullness when you live it, feel it. I encounter this more in performance, when: “Tell me what happened there? How did it look?”. And this [from the story] can always be some kind of chaotic set of gestures. But when a person is there as a spectator, he cares, coexists and even co-creates with you; you co-create something through your presence. And this is something that cannot be described. These are the moments when we sit together in silence – and we feel so good. And, probably, such subtle matters are manifested in this. But in working with communities, and in general when we engage in some kind of work with other people, respect for others and the need to remember that the “ego” cannot work here, but must go aside, are very important. And we should be open to the fact that we are creating together now and this “we” exists: we learn from each other together, we make mistakes together and we can accept it all. In working with students, even though it is a different context, it also forces us to create something together, to rediscover something. There are individual students (this is far from suitable for everyone) who seek and work on projects that research or involve other people or communities. We as a whole department [department of current artistic practices of the Lviv National Academy of Arts] always emphasize that respect for cooperation is very important here, and it can never be something that came “out of the blue”, a momentary project or a project that is implemented in two weeks or in a month, because it requires deeper research, study of the situation and captures a lot of different elements, such as sociological, historical research, conducting personal interviews. That is, there is a whole series of components that go far beyond the boundaries of visual art or the artist. That is why it is valuable, in particular for a student of the Academy of Arts, which allows entering some other realm. And here the sensitivity of the one who works with it is revealed.
[00:22:46] – [00:23:42]. Ye. N.: Thank you very much, Yaryna.
The question is exactly is how long it should last to have an effect is also important for discussion. When we talk about this immersion and trust, about a safe environment, we usually talk about a process that lasts longer than a momentary meeting of the creator and the audience, as it happens mainly in art forms that require co-presence (we are not talking about the visual, but, for example, performance: even in this case it can be a meeting at which something ready is represented). Here [in participatory practices] it is a completely different story. And I will ask Vira to join with her thoughts on how to talk about this process and how, in fact, it continues.
[00:23:44] – [00:25:58]. V. I.-S.: There was another request – to share your experience, how it happened at this year’s [2023] residency in Lviv and what is it about in general. It’s about looking, researching and understanding the group as it is today, now. Because, for example, a group of people yesterday is one group, today the same group is a completely different one. Of course, some factors affect each and every participant: mood, condition, sleep, and so on. And there is the state that they create together. Therefore, I learn this every time and now I try to divide our general practice into certain minimal tasks so that it is, firstly, as clear as possible to people and, secondly, as clear as possible without the need to use words. If I succeed in this – and everyone understands, then I have done a good job and my work found a response in every person. Of course, such responses are very individual and it is their main significance. It’s about how I talk about these practices with participants who are already directly in the process. Another big question for me is how to talk about participatory practices to people who have not had the experience of being in them. Now there is one option for the answer — to outline simply as a scenario of what a person can see from the outside and how they can join the process from the outside. For example, roughly speaking, they will play, sing or lie on the floor, or run. If she already likes it, she dives further. And then he can understand what she will feel at the same time. If she likes it, the last step, I think, is to try it. After all, it is actually very difficult to describe all this verbally.
[00:25:58] – [00:27:40]. Ye. N: But we will still try in all conversations of this cycle. And I propose to talk now about this procedure from the point of view of its duration. Yaryna mentioned that it is necessary to enter the environment, into the community, to explore it. Almost all artists who work with participatory methods give time to deepen, to study, to understand what it is about. And often this is a much more important part of the project than the final performance or practice itself, which will be a publicly visible part.
What are your experiences: how long have your projects been, and what time do you think is optimal for this work? Or maybe we are talking about some much longer-term stories than we are generally used to thinking in the context of contemporary art? And maybe it’s about working with one community for years? As, for example, the Jam Factory has been working with the community of Pidzamcha constantly, since it appeared there and started somehow activating this community around it. And art centers in Europe are also very often oriented to the community of the place where they are located.
What are your experiences in this area?
[00:27:41] – [00:29:20]. V. I.-S.: Since I work with the process and with music (because music in general is about time), now I have come up with a formula that is the most true for me and works the most. We have a common process and there is a group that is part of that process. Everyone starts from the same point at first sight, but there is simply no endpoint. And each person measures their path by how long he is in it: that is, if someone wants to join the practice of chanting and then integrate it into his life, wants to do it at a certain level, and three months is enough for him, as he feels, this okay another person can do it for three years. It was like that with me, and it is like that. And, in my opinion, this is as honest as possible concerning the [involved] people, because, of course, all people are different, perceive information differently, work with themselves differently, maybe overcome certain constraints and fears and develop differently. Therefore, this final time is very rare [it is rarely or impossible to predict]. And if, for example, I set a certain deadline, then it turns out that I simply cut off all these tracks – and zero them or align them.
[00:29:21] – [00:29:21]. Ye. N.: Yaryna, please.
[00:29:21] – [00:33:13]. Ya. Sh.: From my experience, it depends a lot on what goal we set before ourselves, whether there are any frameworks. After all, we can and do work with someone whom we know and with whom we walk side by side all our lives, and with someone we meet – and part ways. There are different situations, like when we have to meet for a week. And the question: what do we set ourselves as a goal for this week, what should be at the end? If we have a month to work, then, of course, the process itself is structured in a completely different way: we have more time to get to know each other. Then there is more room for maneuver to experiment. If we are talking about a residence that lasts a certain period, then who knows what will happen after it? It is quite possible that these people will get together – and will continue to work together. This is a unique experience when, as a result of master classes, participants group together, and develop something of their own, and this has incredible value, in particular for those who lead these master classes: they serve as an initiator or catalyst for a new formation, a new formation.
Speaking about the practice of the Jam Factory, then yes, it is extremely valuable that there is a community with which they work constantly, with various offers and master classes that allow you to observe the development and growth of people. This is the trust that develops between the institution and the participants. That is, each time the time frame will be different. Probably, the first time the participants come for a month-long residence, and then for a week, they know each other, and it will be much easier for those who work with them. There is a question of this cohesion. Some groups are very difficult to unite. And how long will it take? Will it be possible to establish the basis for security mentioned by Vira, to build an element of trust? Agree that we came here to experiment: together we can be both boring and sad, and can be very fun. For me, it is valuable when one begins to listen to one another, and the moment of learning, when one participant learns from another, when some new connections and contacts are formed between them. To me, this is a sign that everything is going in the right direction. Being a facilitator, I, for example, cannot know how things will turn out later, I cannot be responsible or, more precisely, I cannot predict how cooperation will develop further, but if in the process we live together and create something, and it brings joy, I think, this is already a lot.
[00:33:13] – [00:33:24]. Ye. N: If former viewers become participants, then who does the artist become in this story?
[00:33:25] – [00:33:26]. Ya. Sh.: A happy observer!
[00:33:28] – [00:33:36]. Ye. N: You said “facilitator”, “I am a facilitator”. What distinguishes a facilitator from an artist?
[00:33:37] – [00:35:05]. Ya. Sh.: For me, this is a question of “ego”, also imposing one’s skills and knowledge on someone. I follow this moment for myself: I come to share what I can and know, but I am ready to accept that I will also learn something. And there is openness to everyone. You can get to know Mr. Mykhailo or Ms. Galia, who lives on such and such a street in such and such a building, and perhaps in their lives there have never been any exhibitions or paintings, but I can learn a lot from them. It is about the ability to listen to each other. This is what I am talking about: listen to each other, hear and create a situation so that no one is deprived, so that everyone feels their place, their pleasure in the situation that is being created. I don’t know how clear it is, because I’m somewhere in my [thoughts]…
[00:35:07] – [00:35:20]. Ye. N: Vira, join our conversation. Please comment. Your experience is more coaching, but it seems to me that it is about the same story, just from the other side.
[00:35:20] – [00:37:47]. V. I.-S.: I wanted to comment, and that’s how it internally resonated concerning short-term projects and concerning responsibility. We had a case in Lviv at the last residency. As for joining the community for a certain amount of time: even if it’s a month, it’s really not much either, because we don’t meet every day – and we don’t have to. The moon is not much. We overcome certain stages of communication with people: acceptance, acquaintance, involvement in deeper internal processes, and then unification. And as soon as we enter this process of unification, the residency will end, and often we say: “Now goodbye. I pack my suitcase and go to Chernihiv. It was nice talking to you. We are parting ways.” And from the outside, it is very logical, because something has a beginning and an end. But it seems to me that in this process the facilitator or trainer, or whatever we can call this person who balances the process, has responsibility. In what exactly? Try to design this process so that, roughly speaking, our parting is as smooth as possible for people and (first of all not to harm) non-traumatic, and secondly, neutral. I think this is very important. One of the participants of one of the last residencies (and she really liked going to our meetings) came to us and said: “And what should we do now? You will go here. They did it all with us. And what should we do now?”. And I thought a lot about these words. Although it was one person, but it is actually important. It is about the process, about the beginning and the end. Therefore, I think that this is also a very important field that people who enter these practices and enter the community should think about.